Adviser called Rwanda’s policy ‘bullshit’ for effect, says James Cleverly

Home Affairs Minister James Cleverly told the BBC that his adviser was trying to “shock and grab the public’s attention” by labeling the government’s flagship immigration policy in Rwanda as “shit”.

James Sunderland, who was MP for Bracknell from 2019 to 2024 and is running to represent the constituency again, was recorded expressing his views at a private event in April.

In a recording released to the BBC, he can be heard saying: “This policy is bullshit, OK? This is bullshit.”

He then defends the plan, saying it will discourage migrants from trying to cross the English Channel to Britain.

“It’s not about politics. It’s about the effects of politics,” he says.

On April 2, Sunderland spoke at an event for young Conservatives organized by a group called the True Blue Patrons Supper Club and titled: What it’s like behind the scenes at the Home Office.

He is Cleverly’s parliamentary private secretary and previously worked for Suella Braverman.

Mr Sunderland can be heard saying: “I’ve been involved in this for the last two years, I’m immersed in it and I probably shouldn’t say too much.

“I want to tell you that – no one has their camera or phone on – this policy is bullshit, OK? This is bullshit.”

Then he says, “But this isn’t about politics. It’s about the effects of politics. These are second- or third-order effects.

“In Australia, for example, similar policies had a devastating effect. There is no doubt that when the first flights take off, it will send such a shockwave across the English Channel that the gangs will come to a halt.”

Sunderland also criticizes other colleagues for “stirring controversy” and “polarizing opinion”.

He said: “I don’t say stupid things. I’m not on the front page of the newspaper. I do my job. I can praise the hard work.

“If you go out and do what Jonathan Gullis, Brendan Clarke-Smith or Lee Anderson do, you go out and just settle the controversy, you polarize opinion. I do not want it”.

Both Gullis and Clarke-Smith are former Conservative Party MPs and current candidates of the party. Anderson was previously an MP for the Conservative Party, but in March he switched to Reform UK, for which he is running again.

Sunderland told the BBC: “I am disappointed that I was recorded at a private event. I answered questions honestly. I talked about the reaction to this policy. Policy itself is not the final solution, but part of a broader response plan.

“I never publicly criticize my colleagues, but I was asked about my colleagues’ resignation from party positions. I answered honestly that we do not need unnecessary rhetoric and divisions in public life.

On Sunday, Cleverly said his adviser’s “opening remarks were clearly intended to shock and capture the audience’s attention.”

He added that Sunderland further argued that Rwanda’s policy would discourage people from crossing the English Channel in small boats.

A Conservative spokesman said: “Not everyone will like this policy, but having an effective deterrent is the only way to stop the boat.”

Yvette Cooper, Labour’s shadow home secretary, said: “The Tories’ Rwanda plan has been completely exposed as a forced and failed stunt.”

She added: “The Tories have been running the agenda in Rwanda for two years. They sent £300 million and two volunteers to Rwanda.

“When Tories come clean in public and admit what they obviously say in private; that the Rwanda program is a complete fraud.”

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Alistair Carmichael said the Rwanda program was a “catastrophic waste of money”.

“The Rwanda policy is an immoral and expensive stunt and everyone, including leading conservatives, knows it,” he said.

“Liberal Democrats would dismantle these gangs, putting lives at risk, and fix our immigration system.”

In November, Cleverly faced questions after reports claimed he privately described the Rwanda program as “shit.”