Munya Chawawa in the C4 documentary satire Kim Jong-Un

Following the critically acclaimed How to Survive a Dictator documentary about Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe, comedian Munya Chawawa turns his satirical eye on the new totalitarian target of the notorious Kim Jong-Un of North Korea in Rumpus’ new one-off film for Channel 4.

Can you explain what your new show is about?
To me, the show really touches on the idea of ​​something that I think we all experience to a greater or lesser extent, which is the fear of the apocalypse – that feeling that the world is ending. That somehow something will leave the world in a big puff of smoke. I think a lot of this points to figureheads like Kim Jong Un. We’ve heard he’s a crazy individual with access to world-ending nuclear weapons. So this document is an examination of the validity of this theory. This will hopefully alleviate apocalypse anxiety by carefully examining the question: “How big of a threat is this man?” In the mass media, he is most often portrayed as a comic book villain.

How would you describe the show? This isn’t an ordinary document, is it?
Comedy has always been my most effective means of communication. Here in the West, we are very focused on what is happening in our lives. Sometimes I feel like the only way to really get people to invest and engage in something outside of their own sphere is to communicate through comedy. So I would say that the show is an authentic investigation into a real issue, made more approachable and accessible through my signature comedy sketch and song.

You did a similar program about Robert Mugabe. You did it because it had great personal significance for you, having grown up in Zimbabwe. Why did you choose Kim Jong Un and not other dictators?
I think after a heavy documentary about Robert Mugabe, we needed a little relief, and that came in the form of Kim Jong Un. In many ways, I feel like Kim Jong Un is the last boss of dictators – given my obsession with video games – because of the scale of the damage he can cause. The consequences of his leadership are not unique to his country or continent, as often seemed to be the case with Mugabe. This is at the planetary level. So I guess it was about leveling the playing field and looking at a more macro level. Once you understand the basic principles of a dictator, do they apply to someone at Kim Jong Un’s level?

Who are the most memorable people in connection with the film? Who was particularly fascinating to you?
My most moving encounter was certainly with Mr. Jong (a North Korean defector) and his unwavering determination to create the butterfly effect and liberate his family and friends still trapped in North Korea. There is a scene where you watch him rigorously fill bottles with rice and USB drives containing movies like James Bond and episodes of “Friends” which he throws into the sea in hopes that they will throw them into North Korea. And you think, “How the hell does this even matter. How does that even count as a drop in the bucket when you are fighting one of the most entrenched dictators in the world?” However, deep down he is convinced that power lies in the hands of the people. He is guided by his individual goal. I found it really inspiring and touching at the same time. He went through terrible things – things that we couldn’t include in the documentary because of how complex the torture he was subjected to was. When you talk about dictators, you often think on a political level, of men in suits throwing mud in assembly halls, but he actually brought a really personal element to the documentary and made me realize what a human contingent there is when you talk about dictatorships.

Some of them will probably become the target of North Korean repression. Was it difficult to get them to talk?
It was definitely a relationship-building process where you really get to know people, because naturally people are terrified of the consequences of speaking up. And this is the legacy of living in a dictatorship – complete fear of freedom of speech. So you build relationships with people, and we had a fantastic team that guided people through the whole process and ensured their duty of care. But ultimately, when you are in the room with them, you realize that their commitment to free the citizens of North Korea and free them from oppression is unwavering. It is an unstoppable force. And that’s why you can really see it in the interviews, people are baring their souls because it’s so important to them and they’re so passionate about seeing the dictatorship fall. So yes, we had to be very vulnerable to share what they did.

You landed in South Korea at a time of heightened tension and were almost arrested during the trip. Have you ever worried?
I was absolutely paralyzed. Of course, I have received many concerned messages from my mother and naturally you worry about such things. Why the hell would I want to be on Kim Jong Un’s radar? These are enemies I don’t want to have. I just finished sparring with my old host, so adding Kim Jong Un to the list isn’t ideal. But my brand of satire largely attacks society’s villains – whether corrupt politicians or billionaires stirring the pot – so I think there’s an element of risk inherent in a lot of the things I do. I think it’s just part of the trade-off of wanting to create work that feels real and that reflects certain imbalances. Sometimes you have to chase down the big bad guys.

You also spoke with a former North Korean citizen who had fled to receive medical treatment and now wanted to return to North Korea. Were you able to understand her point of view?
What’s fascinating about this is that it made me realize that there can be a class imbalance in North Korea. There is always an inner circle. And for them, life can be quite comfortable. There are undoubtedly people in North Korea for whom life wasn’t that bad. Therefore, some defectors, especially those who went to South Korea only for medical treatment, will want to return. This challenged my belief that anyone who left North Korea was happy to have escaped. I based my beliefs on what I had been told about North Korea – that it was a barren, oppressed wasteland that everyone was trying to escape from. I think it forced me to open my mind to the argument that maybe there are some good aspects to the lives of some people in North Korea.

The North Korean regime is, as we know, dissatisfied with criticism. Did you have any doubts about participating in the program?
If you tell someone, “Don’t tell the truth or there will be consequences,” I feel that it is impossible to act that way. As creators, we seek the truth, whether through documentary, journalism or, in my case, satire. And that’s why sometimes you end up saying things that people don’t want to be heard. In this documentary, of course, I play the role of a journalist and when I look at the journalists whose work I admire, they tirelessly pursue the truth and it does not matter what enemies they make along the way. I guess it’s all about priorities. It was important for me to find the truth and not worry about the consequences of searching for it.

What did you learn that surprised you while filming the series?
I learned that there are actually many sides to the North Korean coin, in the sense that there are people who want to go back, and there is wealth in North Korea for people on the right side of the dictatorship. Despite the most severe trials, people who escaped North Korea continue to risk their lives to liberate their nation. I think the most important thing I learned was the idea that hope for North Korea would not come from the attitude of Western nations, sanctions, or the threat of military action. All this has led to a stalemate between North Korea and the rest of the world. Change will eventually come, and if there is even a glimmer of hope for overthrowing the dictatorship, it will come from the North Koreans, and it will come from them coming across information that will make them realize what the real world is really like.

You dressed up as Donald Trump for one of your sketches. Do you foresee a time when you will make one of these dictatorship documentaries about the USA?
More and more often, I have the impression that America is heading towards a dictatorship model. What Donald Trump is saying, and some of the checks and balances he is trying to remove, have really set off alarm bells in me. We often associate dictatorships with poorer countries with more basic infrastructure. We have a stereotype that dictatorships are created in poor places by stupid people and we exclude ourselves from this in the West. We consider ourselves civilized, we would never do what they did. I actually think the membrane is very thin and we are closer than we think. So yes, I think there is a very real threat that the new Trump government could be the beginning of a Western dictatorship.

This interview is an edited version of an interview conducted by Channel 4

Pippa Considine

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