Trump is called ‘fascist’. What does this mean?

Former President Donald Trump was recently called a “fascist” by his former chief of staff, John Kelly, his opponent, Vice President Kamala Harris, and prominent historian Robert Paxton.

Kelly, a former four-star Marine general and Trump’s former chief of staff, accused his former boss of being a “fascist” In an interview with the New York Times.

“Let’s look at the definition of fascism: It is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of dissent, and belief in a natural social hierarchy,” Kelly told The Times. ” .

“So, in my experience, they certainly would work better in terms of governing America,” he added.

However, for academics who have been studying fascism for a long time, defining fascism is not that simple.

“We’re not just debating whether Trump fits that definition; we don’t agree on what that definition is,” Sheri Berman, a political science professor at Columbia University’s Barnard College, said in an interview with ABC News.

According to both Berman and Rutgers University political scientist Mark Bray, there is no scientific consensus on the term. This is partly because fascists have historically not been committed to “rational consistency,” Bray said, pointing to Italian dictator Benito Mussolini and Nazi Germany dictator Adolf Hitler, whose political stances changed on various occasions.

According to Berman, fascists are totalitarian, aiming not only to control politics but also to reshape society and control the economy.

“These were inherently violent acts,” Berman said. “They not only used violence as a tool to seize power or to go out and conquer other parts of the world, but they also believed that violence was an end in itself, to contribute again to the change of society, to the change of the individuals who make up society.”

According to Bray, fascism stems from the desire to “return to an imagined past where natural hierarchies were respected, hierarchies around nationalism, gender or race” and aims to use mass popular politics to get there by focusing on violence. To purify society from undesirable elements.

There is a debate among historians and political scientists about whether Trump fully fits this requirement.

One New York Times interview In the article published on October 23, Paxton said that the January 6 Capitol insurrection eliminated his reservations about calling Trump a fascist.

However, he said that it was a mistake to focus on the leader of a movement rather than the mass from which it emerged.

Because Hitler and Mussolini were appointees, not elected officials, “the Trump phenomenon seems to have a much more solid social base,” Paxton told The Times. “Something that neither Hitler nor Mussolini could have.”

Bray believes there is a distinction between Trump and “Trumpism” as a political movement, and there are similarities to fascism.

“I certainly call Trumpism a kind of 21st-century American fascism,” Bray said, suggesting that Trump’s most ardent fans may see themselves as “victims who must transcend the boundaries of democratic politics.” (using) liberating violence to take back their country, their nation, or their society.”

Bray believes Trump’s relationship with his supporters has fundamentally influenced his politics: “I think these initiatives are coming from stronger and more sincere than the foundation of Trumpism at the state level, at the county level.”

Bray avoids calling Trump a fascist in the traditional sense because he does not embrace all the ideals of a historical fascist. For example, fascists, unlike Trump, have historically rejected free market capitalism.

Instead, Bray calls Trump a “fascist” — “I think the term fascist suggests that he’s more of an ideologue on this than he actually is,” Bray said.

Berman does not call Trump a fascist; instead he calls it “anti-democratic” and “authoritarian”. But he added that that doesn’t mean his encouragement of violence, such as his comments about using National Guard troops to go after “radical left lunatics” or nativist rhetoric and plans to deport millions of undocumented immigrants, aren’t compatible with fascist tendencies. .

The ongoing debate also questions whether it is useful to use the term when discussing Trump and modern politics.

Berman argues that terms “should help you understand the phenomenon being described” and that confusion and mystery surrounding the term only obscure its impact.

“The reason I choose to highlight his anti-democratic and illiberal aspects is because it gives citizens something very concrete to focus on,” Berman said, pointing to Trump’s specific policies and plans. “It helps them understand what the danger is when you see someone as a fascist.”

Paxton agreed with this view in his interview with the NYT, arguing that overuse cheapens meaning — “I think there are ways to more clearly express the specific danger that Trump represents,” he said.

Inside Town hall on CNN on October 23Harris called Trump a “fascist” and said Kelly’s criticism of her was an effort to make a “911 call to the American people.”

Later at the town hall, Harris openly called Trump a “fascist” while answering a question about Palestinian civilians being killed in Gaza (which Harris called “unconscionable”) and voters choosing to stay home or protest the war. they are not single-issue voters.

“But I know a lot of people who care about this issue also care about lowering food prices,” Harris said. “They also care about our democracy and not having a fascist US president who admires dictators.”

On Truth Social, Trump harshly criticized Harris for her comments, instead calling her a “threat to democracy.” However, he falsely claimed that Harris had referred to him as Hitler.

“Comrade Kamala Harris sees that she’s losing and losing badly, especially after stealing the Race from Crooked Joe Biden, so now she’s increasingly stepping up her rhetoric, going so far as to call me Adolf Hitler and anything else that comes to her mind,” Trump said. “He is a Threat to Democracy and unfit to be President of the United States – And his polls show it!”

ABC News has reached out to the Trump campaign for further comment.

ABC News’ Soo Rin Kim contributed to this report.